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The Fathers and Theosis
29-04-2009, 04:42 PM
Post: #46
 
Dear Marc,

Thanks for the straight answers to my questions. And, it sounds like we are on the same page here (except for the part about drinking espresso straight) :mrgreen: .

And, you have written well about what you have found from your intro to platonism, but as I mentioned before it is my view that even if this charge is removed from the discussion, not much is lost. Because, the results of this alleged influence would still be present, and our focus would then be necessarily right back to the early church fathers primarily (in our investigation of this). So I'm not sure what is really gained in this as it seems a close look at what the early fathers taught is the deciding factor.

But, as we might consider both 'concepts' and 'vocabulary,' or more specifically a common vocabulary of an Hellenistic civilization, I think you will find that primarily the vocabulary is almost identical more so than the concepts. You know Gregory did quote Plato without naming him ('one of the Greek divines') so it is not too hard to see why he is charged with being a platonizer, but it seems clear to me that when we get to where the rubber meets the road, the Christian thoughts/concepts expressed by Gregory represent a clear parting of the way--although there is a common vocabulary. And, for that matter St. John used the term Logos in his Christian writing as well, and he spoke to the Greek mind using what was known to explain the Unknown. This is an ancient rule of education, 'using what is known to explain what is unknown.'

Actually, as it relates to some of the aspects of "the concepts" that are to be found in platonism which do overlap in Eastern Orthodoxy . . . really, why stop there. Why not go to the group that the Greek divines ripped off and do a survey there (viz. the Indian Philosophers)? Many-many concepts are to be found in the Vedantic philosophers that would parallel Eastern Orthodox thinking from theosis to the divine darkness and the way of negation and unknowing as the way of knowing the divine. But, same thing here Marc . . . when these concepts are examined closely while there seems to be a saying of the same thing initally, at the end of the day we clearly are standing on different shores with what seemed to be our allies doctrinally in the beginning. While it appears that we are climbing the same mountain, a closer look reveals with great speed that we are not.

And, this look into Indian Philosophy might actually be somewhat illuminating, because in relation to Paul's speech on Mar's Hill, about the unknown god that they worshiped in his day, we see that there was an ancient time of "seeking" and "groping" as well as a finding . . . here, like Gregory, Paul quoted from the Greek Poets, and like John spoke the language of Greek philosophy, so did Paul as he presented a Christian ontology in a way that could be understood.

But, again, whether we would wind around about this and whether we might conclude that theosis is a Greek or even an Indian invention, or not, I'm not sure how fruitful or meaningful this would be to our discussion as it relates to what appears to be the deciding factor (namely, what the early church fathers say "deification" is as IT relates to either theopoiesis or theosis).

In Christ,
Rick
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Messages In This Thread
The Fathers and Theosis - John Charmley - 19-08-2008, 09:41 AM
In the End, the Beginning? - Rick Henry - 20-08-2008, 12:36 PM
[] - John Charmley - 20-08-2008, 05:03 PM
theosis and the fathers - kirk yacoub - 21-08-2008, 08:37 AM
[] - John Charmley - 21-08-2008, 09:08 AM
Origen on theosis - John Charmley - 26-08-2008, 05:04 PM
the fathers and theosis - kirk yacoub - 27-08-2008, 08:29 AM
[] - John Charmley - 27-08-2008, 08:51 AM
[] - Rick Henry - 27-08-2008, 11:58 AM
[] - John Charmley - 27-08-2008, 03:04 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 27-08-2008, 03:49 PM
the fathers and theosis - kirk yacoub - 28-08-2008, 08:40 AM
[] - admin - 28-08-2008, 09:19 AM
[] - Rick Henry - 28-08-2008, 10:41 AM
[] - Rick Henry - 28-08-2008, 11:31 AM
[] - John Charmley - 28-08-2008, 06:55 PM
Theosis - a journey without end? - Simon - 28-08-2008, 09:00 PM
[] - John Charmley - 28-08-2008, 09:32 PM
the fathers and theosis - kirk yacoub - 29-08-2008, 09:25 AM
[] - Rick Henry - 29-08-2008, 11:51 AM
[] - John Charmley - 29-08-2008, 05:52 PM
[] - marc hanna - 15-04-2009, 07:58 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 15-04-2009, 10:33 PM
[] - marc hanna - 16-04-2009, 02:20 AM
[] - admin - 16-04-2009, 03:01 PM
[] - marc hanna - 16-04-2009, 03:59 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 17-04-2009, 12:15 PM
[] - marc hanna - 17-04-2009, 12:45 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 20-04-2009, 01:22 PM
[] - admin - 20-04-2009, 07:46 PM
[] - marc hanna - 20-04-2009, 08:28 PM
[] - marc hanna - 21-04-2009, 04:05 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 26-04-2009, 09:42 PM
[] - marc hanna - 27-04-2009, 03:37 AM
[] - Rick Henry - 27-04-2009, 11:59 AM
[] - marc hanna - 27-04-2009, 01:31 PM
[] - admin - 27-04-2009, 03:42 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 28-04-2009, 01:04 PM
[] - admin - 28-04-2009, 01:17 PM
[] - marc hanna - 28-04-2009, 02:47 PM
[] - marc hanna - 28-04-2009, 02:47 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 28-04-2009, 04:44 PM
[] - marc hanna - 29-04-2009, 02:57 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 29-04-2009, 03:06 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 29-04-2009 04:42 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 29-04-2009, 05:00 PM
[] - marc hanna - 29-04-2009, 06:01 PM
[] - admin - 30-04-2009, 11:53 AM
[] - marc hanna - 30-04-2009, 01:05 PM
[] - admin - 30-04-2009, 01:45 PM
[] - marc hanna - 30-04-2009, 02:03 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 30-04-2009, 02:07 PM
[] - marc hanna - 13-05-2009, 12:47 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 11-08-2009, 01:03 PM
[] - marc hanna - 11-08-2009, 02:06 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 09-10-2009, 01:39 PM
[] - marc hanna - 09-10-2009, 01:51 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 09-10-2009, 02:02 PM
[] - marc hanna - 09-10-2009, 02:25 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 09-10-2009, 02:45 PM
[] - marc hanna - 09-10-2009, 03:22 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 09-10-2009, 03:34 PM
[] - marc hanna - 09-10-2009, 03:58 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 09-10-2009, 04:44 PM
[] - marc hanna - 09-10-2009, 04:54 PM
[] - marc hanna - 09-10-2009, 05:06 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 09-10-2009, 05:16 PM
[] - marc hanna - 10-10-2009, 07:25 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 15-10-2009, 11:47 AM
[] - marc hanna - 15-10-2009, 12:51 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 15-10-2009, 01:34 PM
[] - marc hanna - 15-10-2009, 04:53 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 15-10-2009, 05:17 PM
[] - marc hanna - 15-10-2009, 06:48 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 27-01-2010, 06:56 PM
[] - marc hanna - 27-01-2010, 07:09 PM
[] - admin - 29-01-2010, 01:04 PM
[] - marc hanna - 29-01-2010, 01:13 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 29-01-2010, 06:09 PM
[] - admin - 01-02-2010, 09:26 AM
[] - marc hanna - 01-02-2010, 03:06 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 01-02-2010, 03:23 PM
[] - marc hanna - 01-02-2010, 03:32 PM
[] - Rick Henry - 01-02-2010, 03:56 PM
[] - marc hanna - 01-02-2010, 05:09 PM
[] - John Charmley - 04-04-2010, 09:30 AM
[] - Rick Henry - 05-04-2010, 02:17 PM
[] - John Charmley - 05-04-2010, 02:24 PM



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